Ever wondered what roles you're playing in your love life? Are you the pursuer or the distancer in your relationship? Join us, Zakk and Blaire, your friendly neighborhood marriage experts for a thought-provoking discussion on this fascinating dynamic. We’re not just marriage counselors; we've got nearly 14 years of marriage under our belts. So rest assured, we know a thing or two about the dance of love.

Get ready to shift your perspective as we unpack the importance of the Holy Spirit and the concept of 'dying to self' in relationships. 

Picture this, you’re sandpapering away the rough edges of your own self to let the spirit rise up smooth – sounds empowering, doesn't it? We’ll share personal anecdotes and practical insights on how this spiritual evolution can boost your relationship and help you face challenges together.

Lastly, we’ll help you get your hands dirty with the nitty-gritty of managing the pursuer-distancer dynamic. Imagine being able to set aside time for deep conversations, honoring your partner's need for space, and building a relationship that's oozing with trust and intimacy. We want you to fight for your marriage, not against each other. So, tune in, let's explore this beautiful, crazy world of love and relationships together.

Episode Transcript

Zakk: 0:01

Do you ever look at your spouse and think what is wrong with you? Why are you the way that you are? Well, you are not alone. Coming up on this first ever episode of Love Lessons, we're going to show you a simple concept that can have a huge impact on your marriage stop the bickering and help you to live in harmony with each other. Plus, we'll introduce ourselves and tell you a little bit about our vision for this new show. It's all coming up right now on Love Lessons.

Zakk: 0:31

Hey there, and welcome to the Love Lessons Podcast. This is episode number one: There Appears to Have Been a Struggle, so I love today's episode title. Have you seen that meme that makes it surround on social media? And it's like my housekeeping style is best described as there appears to have been a struggle.

Blaire: 1:14

So you're saying my marriage style is a bit like there appears to be a struggle. Is that the relation you're making there?

Zakk: 1:21

Yeah, okay, marriage is not supposed to be a boxing match, right.

Blaire: 1:28

You shouldn't want to square up with your spouse.

Zakk: 1:30

I mean, there are times like that, there have been times, right, like I love you, you're my moon and my stars. But I really want to square up right now. Yeah, yeah.

Blaire: 1:37

Okay.

Zakk: 1:40

But how many times do we see people who are just like in this constant struggle and their relationship? And there are so many simple things they can put into practice to make them feel better.

Blaire: 1:49

Yeah, so we're talking about pursuers and distances. Every relationship has them, and if you don't know which one you are or how to live in peace with the other, it can wreak havoc on your relationship. We're also going to introduce ourselves and tell you a little bit about what you can expect from love lessons.

Zakk: 2:08

Do you like fun facts? If they're really fun, okay. Well, my facts are always fun. Okay, that's not true, but they are always informative, informative fun facts. There you go. I have a whole plethora of fun facts a myriad, if you will. And I have a series of fun facts just for love lessons.

Blaire: 2:28

You have prepared.

Zakk: 2:30

I have prepared. I don't prepare for much, but I did prepare for this, okay. So here's the fun fact. Okay, all right, you ready? It turns out that the saying happy wife, happy life really is true.

Blaire: 2:41

Okay, okay.

Zakk: 2:42

So get this. According to this study from Rutgers University, they analyzed data from nearly 400 long-term married couples, so I'm assuming when they say long-term they mean you know, like more than five minutes. And this study shows that a wife's contentment in the marriage is the critical factor in a satisfying arrangement, more so than the husband's.

Blaire: 3:03

Okay.

Zakk: 3:04

Okay. So to assess their state of happiness, individuals were asked how often their spouse got on their nerves. They didn't ask you Don't answer that how often arguments occurred, okay, okay. So they felt doing chores, and whether they felt appreciated, and so overall, men, according to the responses, felt slightly more happy in their marriages than the women did, and so a wife's dissatisfaction spelled less contentment for her husband, though interestingly enough, the husband's lack of contentment did not have the same impact on his spouse. So a sociology professor there at Rutgers said that this is probably because when a wife is satisfied in the marriage, she tends to do a lot more for her husband, which has a positive effect on his life. But that may not be the case the other way around.

Blaire: 3:52

That's interesting, so I can actually see this. So when I look at, like, the demographics of couples who come in for couples counseling, it is a lot of times the wives who initiate it because of their dissatisfaction. So I could see that.

Zakk: 4:06

And I think that wives tend to serve. This is not a blanket statement, so don't come after me with pitchforks, but I think that wives tend to serve their husbands more than husbands probably serve their wives. In traditional roles, wives tend to be more subservient At least that's how society has painted women over time, and so it's just an expectation, maybe, that wives are to serve more.

Blaire: 4:33

I can see that that was fun.

Zakk: 4:35

That was a fun fact and here's your homework for the day. Husbands, Go home and do something nice for your wife.

Blaire: 4:41

Serve your wife, yeah.

Zakk: 4:43

Put the sir in serve.

Blaire: 4:46

Oh no, that was bad. No, it's. No sir, no sir.

Zakk: 4:54

No sir.

Blaire: 4:54

No, sir, that’s not even spelled the same. If that is what we can expect, then we just need to pack up and go home.

Zakk: 5:07

I am full of puns.

Blaire: 5:09

But you're not punny.

Zakk: 5:10

I am very punny.

Blaire: 5:14

Do you consider yourself to be an expert?

Zakk: 5:16

Yes.

Blaire: 5:17

Okay.

Zakk: 5:18

In eating cheeseburgers, okay. In stupid sci-fi movies, yes. And in fun facts.

Blaire: 5:27

Okay.

Zakk: 5:28

Because, as we've already seen, I have a relevant fun fact for every situation.

Blaire: 5:33

Everything. What about in marriage? Do you consider yourself an expert in marriage?

Zakk: 5:36

No.

Blaire: 5:37

No.

Zakk: 5:37

No. So the consultants told us that we were supposed to bill ourselves as marriage experts.

Blaire: 5:45

Yes, Dr. Zakk and Blair Gammon, marriage experts.

Zakk: 5:49

But that feels weird.

Blaire: 5:50

Makes me feel weird.

Zakk: 5:51

Yeah, but now that they have cashed the check, the consultants I don't really feel the need to do what they say.

Blaire: 5:57

We can call ourselves Zakk and Blaire the ding-dongs.

Zakk: 6:01

Which is way more accurate. It really is Right yeah.

Blaire: 6:05

We don't take ourselves so seriously that we think that we are the experts, right, but we do have a bit of experience, which is why they dubbed us that Back in 2015, we started a Christian counseling practice. You are a licensed marriage and family therapist with experience in marriage and family systems, and I am a licensed pastoral counselor with experience in marriage and in trauma, right. So those things equal expert, I guess.

Zakk: 6:34

Allegedly.

Blaire: 6:34

Allegedly so, but aside from that, we also have some life experience that is pretty relevant, I think, to, if not more important, as important as our expert experience, if you will.

Zakk: 6:49

Yeah, so we've been married for nearly 14 years now, right? We have three kids, two daughters, two teenagers. Well, one's a teenager, the other is six months away from being a teenager.

Blaire: 7:00

So rounds it up to being a teenager.

Zakk: 7:01

And reminds us every day, every day. Yeah, and then we thought, well, we don't have enough going on here, so why not just start all over and have another one, and then start a podcast in the same year?

Blaire: 7:12

So we have a 10-month-old and a new podcast. That's a newborn Right, a newborn podcast and a 10-month-old human child.

Zakk: 7:19

Right, you're getting to watch the birth of our podcast together the birth and the growth. Right, that's weird, isn't?

Blaire: 7:25

it. Yeah, it's weird yeah. So, we also worked through some of our own marriage conflict and marriage issues too.

Zakk: 7:34

Yeah, yeah.

Blaire: 7:34

So we've struggled with infidelity, we've had pornography challenges, codependency. We've also dealt with a plethora of other challenges, like you know co-parenting, parenting, in-laws, trauma from our childhood, codependency. I think I already said codependency, but it could be said again because it's pretty relevant. Yeah, conflict we have conflict very differently in how we resolve that. What else are we missing?

Zakk: 8:06

We've struggled financially yeah, we've struggled spiritually. Yeah, absolutely. We've struggled physically. We've just been like on the struggle bus.

Blaire: 8:15

So this episode is so aptly named.

Zakk: 8:17

Right, yeah, so it's. You know, it's just we've gone through so many things and it's not that we consider ourselves experts, because how many people out there, you know, with their suit and tie and their 47 degrees, go out there and they try to explain to you all the ways that you need to do all these things Right. And then there are also the people who have been married for five minutes and they start a podcast because they think that they have something great to say. I don't think that we're either of those people. Yeah, it's just that we have had this wealth of experience that sadly comes from a lot of difficulties, but we've also had this professional experience and we get to help and serve people together, and so we thought you know what better way to be able to do that to the masses than to share it in this format?

Blaire: 9:05

Yeah, Well, and we also talk too, because both of us have seen trends. So some days we go in and it's like we have the same conversation for five times in sessions. It's our couples are having some of the same issues, and so we've always said you know, how great it would be if we could just record ourselves and play it back so we don't have to keep saying it over and over almost like group therapy, if you will and so this avenue allows us to do that, not because we feel like we have some, you know, super amazing information to share, although it is really helpful. It's not about us. It's about what God's done and what we've been able to see, and we just want to pass that along so other people don't have to suffer or struggle in the same ways that we have or that we have seen others.

Zakk: 9:45

Yeah, and you know I'm in this new season now of life. For the last year I've been serving as one of the pastors at our local church and you know, even being on this side of the, the desk or the couch, if you will and talking to folks, it's really different when you're talking to them from the perspective of a pastor. You know, I've talked to folks and they'll explain their challenges and what's going on. And one of the first things that I ask is okay, so you've told me all these issues that you're having, but you haven't told me where the Holy Spirit is in the middle of this.

Blaire: 10:19

Yeah right.

Zakk: 10:20

A successful relationship really has three people the husband, the wife and the Holy Spirit. And If you have just pushed him aside, or you're not acknowledging him there and in working through, or if you're not Christians, then you're gonna face some challenges.

Blaire: 10:33

Yeah, so recognizing that you need the Holy Spirit, but also you have to die to self. And you can choose to die to self out of your own flesh, and that's a lot harder, or you can allow the Holy Spirit to help Sandpaper away some of those tough spots on you, kind of help your flesh die down in your spirit to rise up Smooth. Smooth the edges if you will.

Zakk: 10:57

Yeah so while we're not experts, I kind of see us as like the farmers insurance jingle. You know we. We know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two. You're welcome, that'll be in your head. For the rest, all day long.

Announcer: 11:16

This episode of the Love Lessons Podcast is brought to you by Revive Counseling Center. Revive provides faith-based counseling services to help people claim spiritual, emotional and physical wellness, with multiple in person locations, as well as convenient online counseling options. Revive Counseling Center has helped countless marriages and individuals find help and healing, allowing people to create fulfilling and thriving relationships, reviving hope and restoring life. Learn more at revivecounseling.org.

Blaire: 11:47

So we want to talk today about a small concept that, if put in place, can have some pretty big impact on your communication and your conflict resolution.

Zakk: 11:55

Yeah, it's called the pursuer-distancer relationship, and what's interesting about the way our relationships work is that every relationship has one. Okay, so it's not just in the marriage relationship, but you can, you will, you will see a pursuer and a distancer, and a mother-child relationship, and siblings work, boss, so on. Every person that you have any kind of contact with, there is a pursuer and there is a distancer. Right, but it's most Profoundly seen in the marriage relationship. It's where we see the sparks start to fly and the arguments start to come out.

Blaire: 12:32

So the concept of pursuer and distancer, it actually is so simple that it sounds Duh, you know, so silly that we have to explain it. But when you really look at what it is, the pursuer pursues the relationship, they pursue Conflict resolution, they, they run towards the problem and the distancer does the opposite. They, they run away from the conflict, from the problem and sometimes from the person. So if you think of like a stop sign being the issue, the pursuer is going to run towards the stop sign and the distancer is going to run away from the stop sign. And so, because every relationship has them, each person is going to play their role. And if you don't realize what your role is and what your partner's role is, then you are going to kind of spin, you know, your tires a little bit trying to figure out how to resolve conflict, because you're each gonna be playing your roles and you're not really going to get anywhere because you haven't come to any working Agreements on how to handle the conflict so I think it's important for people to understand that neither of these approaches are wrong.

Zakk: 13:30

There's nothing wrong with the pursuer and nothing wrong with the distancer, but what is incredibly important is to figure out which one you are right. So if there is one in every relationship, then you are either the pursuer or the distancer, and the other is the other person.

Blaire: 13:45

And you actually might be listening is already thinking and knowing and hopefully that's the goal is that you know off the top of your head. Oh, when we have a conflict here's what my spouse says and here's what I do I already automatically know who we are in our relationships. If not, you might want to put a little thought into it. Think about that, what that would look like. Who runs Toward the problem and who runs away from the problem?

Zakk: 14:04

So here's an easy litmus test, right? If an issue comes up, let's say that you guys get into a Disagreement or there's a. It doesn't even have to be a disagreement, but a difference of opinion over a decision that you're making. Let's say that you're buying new curtains for the living room. It could be something relatively simple in the grand scheme, right, and the two of you are in a disagreement and now you're kind of feeling a little frustrated. When you feel that frustration, are you wanting to move in immediately and try to solve it and say, okay, here are options, let's choose a solution, or are you the person who needs to step away and Take a few minutes and think about it? So that's your frustrated because you're frustrated. Yeah, so the pursuer is the person who moves in and wants to solve the issue. The distancer is the one who starts to pull away, and here's why. All right. So the pursuer moves toward the, the issue at hand, in an attempt to find a solution, because they believe that the solution is found Inside the relationship. The distancer pulls away because they believe that the, the solution is found outside of the relationship, not outside, meaning somebody else, just outside meaning I have to get away and I have to think through this and walk through it. Process.

Blaire: 15:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the pursuer. If they do not get their needs of resolution, then that causes a lot of anxiety for this person in this relationship and over time, if that adds up, if there's conflict with no resolution, it can build up and cause a lot of resentment, but also this habitual pattern of I know that I'm not going to find resolution and so it increases your anxiety and it decreases the satisfaction of that relationship.

Zakk: 15:43

And really the distancer is experiencing the same thing, right, Just from the other perspective. The distancer, they need to get away. But then as soon as that cycle begins, right, they start pulling away. Every time they get into a disagreement, they think I know this person's going to start just pushing and pushing, and pushing, and I've got to start pulling away to be able to get my piece. And then you can easily see how these patterns start to develop and it just creates this perfect storm of just negativity in a relationship.

Blaire: 16:10

Right, absolutely. So how to use this information is really important. So the first thing that you have to do is acknowledge that there is a problem. Right, you can't make any changes if neither of you are on the same page. That you need to make changes, right? So acknowledge the problem.

Zakk: 16:28

Right.

Blaire: 16:28

So step two is that you need to set a time later after the conflict, to sit down and to resolve it, to work towards it. So this is important for two reasons. So you have the conflict and the pursuer wants to fix it right now and the distancer wants to run away, run to the other the other way and doesn't want to do anything about it at that time. So, setting a time later on maybe maybe it's five minutes, maybe it's 50 minutes, maybe it's two days from now, depending on the severity of the disagreement the pursuer needs to know that there is a set time, that you are coming back together, so that it reduces their anxiety. So they understand okay, I'm going to give the distancer some space, but I know that they're going to come back and we're going to resolve the issue. And then, on the flip side, the distancer knows okay, I'm going to be allowed my time away from the situation to process, but my obligation is to go back and is to resolve it. Because what we haven't said yet is the distancer is the king or queen and I say this from personal experience of saying I don't want to talk about this right now, and what they really mean is I don't want to talk about this ever. I want this to go away. I want to sweep it under the rug, and so that causes anxiety with your spouse or with your partner. So it's important to hold true to that agreed time, come back and try to resolve it.

Zakk: 17:47

So if the goal of this is both people actually getting their needs met, and not arguing to be right, but actually getting their needs met.

Blaire: 17:55

Yeah.

Zakk: 17:56

Then we have to learn, a, how to implement this like we've talked about, but then B, what to do if it doesn't work, because in reality it's probably not going to the first few times that you try it. It's going to feel really weird and awkward. You remember on the first date that you go on with somebody and it just like you're trying to figure out what do I do to fill the time. How do I have this when?

Blaire: 18:17

to put my hands.

Zakk: 18:18

Right, it is not on the other person, it is Blake for the room for the Holy Spirit, right. You know, sometimes thoughts just come out and, like you, hear about the same time I do. It's great, but it's going to feel awkward like that first day.

Blaire: 18:34

Right, it's like learning a new habit. It takes what? 21 days Exactly the first time you do it. It might not work, probably won't, probably won't. So don't send us an email going. I tried that tip. You told me it didn't work. Well, let's try it a few more times, right? But Picasso didn't just pick up a paintbrush… go ahead. Sorry, I was going on a tangent there.

Zakk: 18:56

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Blaire: 18:58

That's the correct one.

Zakk: 18:59

But he did just pick up a main brush and start painting.

Blaire: 19:02

I realized, as I was saying it, that analogy and word oh gosh.

Zakk: 19:07

So go into it knowing that this is going to be a challenge the first few times that you try, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. Yeah, absolutely. So here's a simple, easy way to make this process begin working Set some time aside and when you come back to that agreed time and both of you do that and you start having the conversation, if you feel that frustration start to rise up again, then it's okay to basically play a game of kick the can down the road and set another time aside. You know, maybe you set aside 15 minutes because this was something small and you need to set aside another 30 minutes, or maybe it's bigger and you need to wait till tonight after the kids go to bed, or tomorrow morning when you're getting ready for work, or tomorrow at lunch or whatever that is. But just keep that time in mind and then, when you come back to that point, have the conversation and if it starts getting heated or frustrated again, then set aside some more time, because what's happening is the distancer is going to yet again be able to get their thoughts together, to be able to process, and the pursuer is knowing okay, we're going to be able to find some resolution. It may not be immediately, but as the pursuer, I know that the distancer is committed to this and as the distancer, I know that the pursuer is going to wait for me to be able to process Right. It's a beautiful thing and sometimes these things happen to where you might have to, you know, kick the can down the road two or three times. If it's something really big, it might take a lot longer. I once had a couple in marriage counseling and they had, I think it was like a 46 or a 47 day argument, because they came in to counseling and I introduced this and they're like oh yeah, absolutely, this is going to work and I'm going to make it work. And they, just out of like sheer will and determination, use this process. And it was so funny because every week they came back and they're like, nope, still in the argument, but we're committed to making this work and in the end it did and they are. Their relationship is one of the strongest marriages I know because they implemented this simple thing and when they figured this out, most everything else in their relationship just kind of fell into place, because they learned how to find true resolution to the conflict while honoring the other person that needs.

Blaire: 21:15

Yeah, and so in our own marriage we've actually seen this in play. We put this in play a lot of times and actually you're really great about it. Whenever I start distancing, I'm the distancer. Zakk is the pursuer. When I start distancing, you saying Okay, but when can we come back together? And that's a good reminder to me to go oh, you know he needs that. So you're advocating for your needs to get met, but you're not overpowering my needs, not disregarding my needs. You're just making sure that you're giving me what I need, but also advocating and reminding that you have needs as well, and so it's a good reminder to me. Okay, I need to honor my husband and I need to come back to this. And if I don't have the answer or maybe I say 20 minutes and I come back in 20 minutes and I'm still not at a place where I'm able to discuss it, I'm not processed or emotionally calm down enough to do so Then it's like, okay, 20 more minutes, and we trust each other. At this point, I know that you are going to allow me time, even if I need to tell you multiple times we got to come back to it and you trust that I'm going to come back to it and that your needs are going to get met, and so, when this is in play, it really is a beautiful thing for a relationship.

Zakk: 22:20

And you know, let me just say too, there is some beauty, because if you can implement this properly, then you start to build trust with the other person. And so what ends up happening is that there are times that you'll look at me and you'll say, okay, you're starting to escalate and we need to put a pause on this so that Zakk doesn't say something that he's going to regret or that he's going to have to work real hard to take it back. And because we've built that respect in the relationship, I can I may not like it, but I can say you know what? You're right, I need to back up?

Blaire: 22:47

Yeah, because you trust that person.

Zakk: 22:48

Yeah, and so that's that's. One of the beauties of this process is that you're not just learning how to resolve the conflict. You're really building trust and that intimacy that we talked about in the relationship, right.

Blaire: 23:00

Did you know you can have intimacy in the middle of a disagreement? Exactly, you can honor the other person in the middle of that, but our emotions don't always feel like they leave room for that, or so That'll be fun to talk about at some point.

Zakk: 23:10

Exactly, but this process really is a lot like riding a bike. It's what I tell people. You know it's when you're learning to ride a bike. You are going to fall off, you're going to skin your knee, you are going to get hurt maybe, but you don't give up. When you were a kid learning to ride a bike and you fell off a few times, you didn't just give up and walk away. You got back on and you perfected your skill, and this is just one of those skills that you work on until you get it right. So let's end this thought with this quote that I found that I really like. It says a strong relationship requires loving each other, even in those moments of descent when you struggle to even like each other. Time now for Love Notes. It's a portion of our show where we offer a bite-size piece of information that you can take with you to improve your relationship, and today's tip is really simple A spouse is not your enemy. You guys are going to go through things, but you're going to go through them together. You might experience hard times, but you are going to experience them together. If we are fighting, we should be fighting for our marriage and not against the other person. And so, whatever it is that's going on in your life, if it is argument, if it is a financial situation, if it's even something as serious as infidelity if you were committed to the relationship, then you were committed to the marriage. Don't fight against the other person, but remember to show grace and to show mercy in those times where it feels like things are going south. You begin to change your mindset and implement that into your relationship and I guarantee you, in time you're going to see a big change.

Blaire: 24:53

So that is episode one of Love Lessons we made it.

Zakk: 24:58

We survived.

Blaire: 24:58

Yeah, we laughed, we didn't cry Minimal tears. We're still married. Yeah, praise the Lord, praise Jesus.

Zakk: 25:07

All five people who we begged to watch are hopefully still watching or listening. Yeah, so.

Blaire: 25:12

Successful episode one we struggled on that bus High five, virtual air five, some virtual air five.

Zakk: 25:20

Thank you, guys so much for tuning in to episode one. We're really excited about the future of this show and we would be honored if you would support us by liking us on our Facebook page or subscribing on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcast. Don't forget to visit us at lovelessons.fm and share with your friends. We'll see you next time.

Announcer: 25:43

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Love Lessons Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast. That helps others find the show and we greatly appreciate it. Once again, thanks for tuning in and we'll catch you in the next episode.